In the latest episode of the Interesting B2B Marketers podcast, Steve Goldhaber converses with Pegasystems' digital marketing strategist, Zoe Kazmierski. They delve into the pivotal role of integrating SEO and paid search teams, emphasizing the benefits of a consistent user search experience. Drawing from shared data, they highlight the potential for increased visibility, cost savings, and improved click-through rates.
Shifting focus, the two experts discuss the essence of a data-driven approach in guiding buyer decisions. Zoe elaborates on how you can leverage varied data sources, like search data and win-loss interviews, to address buyer needs and stand out in a competitive market.
Lastly, personal narratives unfold as Zoe recounts her transition from publishing to marketing, emphasizing team alignment in today's digital realm. Steve underscores the importance of effective messaging and the challenges businesses encounter in establishing clear priorities.
Connect with Zoe Kazmierski and Steve Goldhaber on LinkedIn.
In the latest episode of the Interesting B2B Marketers podcast, Steve Goldhaber converses with Pegasystems' digital marketing strategist, Zoe Kazmierski. They delve into the pivotal role of integrating SEO and paid search teams, emphasizing the benefits of a consistent user search experience. Drawing from shared data, they highlight the potential for increased visibility, cost savings, and improved click-through rates.
Shifting focus, the two experts discuss the essence of a data-driven approach in guiding buyer decisions. Zoe elaborates on how you can leverage varied data sources, like search data and win-loss interviews, to address buyer needs and stand out in a competitive market.
Lastly, personal narratives unfold as Zoe recounts her transition from publishing to marketing, emphasizing team alignment in today's digital realm. Steve underscores the importance of effective messaging and the challenges businesses encounter in establishing clear priorities.
Connect with Zoe Kazmierski and Steve Goldhaber on LinkedIn.
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Steve Goldhaber: Hey everybody. Welcome back to Studio 26 in the interesting B2B Marketers podcast. I'm excited to have Zoe on the show today. Zoe, welcome.
Zoe Kazmierski: Thank you, Steve. Nice to be on.
Steve Goldhaber: Alright, cool. 60-second background of who you are. Tell us, no pressure. What makes you interesting?
No pressure at all. What a horrible, what a horrible introduction, right? Tell me why you're the world's most interesting person.
Zoe Kazmierski: Go. Yeah. Right. Give me a couple of minutes to think about that. No. Yeah, so, I lead digital marketing strategy at Pega Systems, which is a B2B enterprise software company. I'm based in the Boston area.
I've been in the digital marketing space for about 14 years now. I started in textbook publishing like you do, being an English major. I was gonna be an editor and decided that I loved marketing. And I can talk about that more later. However, I started there by building digital content and tools to drive the adoption of their products.
And then I moved to Digitas marketing agency where I focused on content strategy for big brands in the banking and healthcare space. Nice. So I got, yeah. Yeah. Right now in my role, oh, go ahead. Sorry. Cut you off. Right now I focus on web search, email, and social strategy, and I have a great team of experts who are guiding the practice forward.
Steve Goldhaber: I was gonna say two Digitas alumni in the house. I've, I worked in the Chicago office for about 10 years back in the day.
Zoe Kazmierski: Oh, nice. Yeah, I enjoyed my time there. A great place to work.
Steve Goldhaber: All right, cool. So we're gonna just jump into the first case, and this one is all about not just being very tactical with search, but being a little bit more holistic.
So take it away.
Zoe Kazmierski: So the company we're talking about is a tech company. They have a, like a legacy kind of platform, but they're also always investing in new technologies, bringing them on. So from a search perspective, it's a constantly shifting landscape in terms of. The topics that we need to go after search become a very prominent player in that space in terms of demand generation.
So traditionally, you know, when you're thinking about your search practice, you have your s e o team, you have your paid search team, and they're kind of operating in silos that we, that was my, has been my experience. You know, you have different teams, different skill sets, different KPIs, different tactics, like ways that they're trying to run their channels.
Over the last few years what we, you know, this kind of light bulb moment went off at some point where it was like a, the search experience is one search experience for buyers and people who are searching. They don't care that it's a paid ad an organic search result, or a visual search result, whatever it is.
And also as the search landscape has changed over time. Just the amount of real estate available in search has diminished. And so we decided to be able to maximize our presence around driving engagement in search, we needed to come together, have these two groups come together to think about ways that we could share data, that we could share insights, and make sure that we were one team focused on search at large.
So we did this in kind of a multifaceted way. So the first piece is, okay, well let's look at the, the, again, the landscape of search results. What can we do to appear better in visual search results? And what can we think about from a structured metadata standpoint? Where can we kind of push there to make sure that we're not just kind of looking at our straight like, you know, organic search results that are just links?
So started working with some vendors on that, working with our developers on how could we implement that, create, you know, more emphasis on FAQs, video tagging, things like that. That was one aspect of it, but I think the biggest, the biggest work stream that drove the most results from us was bringing the focus on what are those key topics that we are focused on as a business
ed to. Our product marketing team, and our brand positioning team, understand how messaging is changing over time, and what are the different areas that we are that we are selling into new products and technologies that are emerging. We had kind of this front-row seat at the table to say like, Where do we need to pivot and where do we need to create the right content to be able to appear in those search results?
That was information that our paid search team was not necessarily getting. So when we took a look at like the topics that they were investing in, the different campaigns, and the content that they were pointing to, there was a lot of room for us to weigh in there and make sure that they were aligned.
So what we started to do was take this very data-driven approach First it was like, okay, where do we have some cannibalization potentially that's happening? Where do we have? Search volume and engagement that's happening from paid traffic, but we're not necessarily creating the right content to be able to point to.
So trying to look at those gaps, both from a keyword expansion standpoint and refinement standpoint and the content we're driving to. So being able to just bring the teams together to start looking at the data together was impactful.
Steve Goldhaber: Yeah. Tell me about, like, I want to dive into the cultural side of this 'cause I agree with what you're saying is traditionally they are like, it's like East Coast and West Coast.
They've heard of each other, but we don't talk. So when you, when you got the teams together, what was that like?
Zoe Kazmierski: Yeah, so you know, there's always like a little bit of hesitation around, well, what do you mean? Like, we operate in this way, right? And like, we're not used to getting this type of input.
But I think what we were able to mitigate was this idea of campaigns going out of date. And the thing with paid is when you're searching for. A high-volume topic. Let's say you're searching for like, you know, C R M C M software, whatever it is, you're gonna see the paid ads at the top. That's just how it works, right?
And the problem is that some of our leadership was seeing ads pop up and questioning, Hey, why is it, why does this say this partic, why does it say it in this particular way? Or like, it's not, you know, positioning it in the way that we want it to be positioned, or where's this pointing to? So it started to get a little bit more visibility from leadership.
To say, Hey, let us help you with this. Like, let us make sure we're aligned. And being able to see the benefit in that way. And I, you know, I think generally like the skills around content strategy that you look for when you're hiring an SS e o lead when you're hiring like, you know, an s creating an s e O team and having them work with content marketers and product marketers and all of that, it's not solely the same skillset that you would hire for on the paid side.
Yeah. So being able to kind of share the value and share the data was impactful. Yeah.
Steve Goldhaber: I mean two very different mindsets. One is like a long game. The other is a little bit like the legacy advertising interruption model. So I've always, that's why I asked the question is it's just very, the organic folks tend to be more pro user.
Maybe that's not the best way to describe it, but they're like, they're very much like in it to figure out the algorithms as well as the user experience. The luxury of the paid folks. They just have big budgets. Right. They just, they point the dollars anywhere and they're like immediate results in three days.
It's not, not that easy. I know, but what was, what was the outcome of, of this case? Like what, how did you feel about the work? What was, what was
Zoe Kazmierski: Different? Well, it was kind of like we had to do a few pilots and experiments first, you know, to get our feet under us. So starting to look topic by topic, you know, the, especially for the most invested.
And starting to do that refinement around, okay, well what are these ad groups like? What are the topics? What are the keywords? What content do we need to create? What content do we have? That type of thing. And just The general results from that first pilot were strong in terms of improved click-through rate, and reduced cost per click, especially looking at visits from audiences.
We cared about that. We just had to keep going. And I think that was kind of the fuel to the fire and being able to say, okay, what do we do next? Where, you know, kind of how are we looking at this holistically? One big thing I think that I realized is that you can get the two teams talking. You can get a work stream in order with different milestones, but this ends up becoming a full-time job for somebody.
Right. And somebody who is well-versed in both sides, like you were talking about both sets of skills. So what I ended up doing is advocating for a full-time hire to be in this type of role. And thankfully this person is now it's kind of. Drumbeat let's look at the data sources together. Let's make sure that any content that we're creating is filling a gap in search, whether it's paid or organic.
Steve Goldhaber: Yep. Excellent. All right. Cool. Anything else you wanna share about, yeah, the first case study? No, I think that's it. Alright. So case study number two. This is all about adopting a data-driven approach to support buyer enablement. So tell us about this company.
Zoe Kazmierski: Yeah, so this company, the same company I was talking about earlier, and you know, Adopted a challenger sale selling methodology a few years back.
And from a marketing perspective, we started thinking about the idea of buyer enablement. And this is kind of like a key term coin in the presales world. It's also something Gartner talks a lot about in their research. However, this idea is that B2B brands have to support buyers in their purchase process from a decision-making standpoint.
Being able to kind of reduce all the complexity and noise that they have when they're selecting a supplier, trying to get consensus, all of that. So when we started to think about, well, how can we do this more effectively from a buyer enablement standpoint, this is very important. Sales are always going to be extremely important in that buying process.
But as much as we can be doing on the digital marketing side to support like how. Part of it was thinking about what the data sources we have available to us to help us understand where people are getting hung up, you know, what are the pain points they're experiencing. Can you look at win-loss interviews and see where we lost potentially?
Like where were we not as strong in our ability to promote ourselves, help people understand our capabilities, et cetera? We do a lot of client research on our side and all of that type of research around like, How do people feel that we are differentiated? What type of problems do they run into?
Where do they most lean in? I guess when we're trying to position ourselves, that's all the type of data that really. At the macro level, I think there's also a treasure trove of data that we have available at our fingertips from a digital behavior standpoint. And so when you're thinking about how people are arriving at your site from something like Google, right, from a search perspective, or once they're on your site, how are they?
What types of searches are they performing? What are they asking? The chatbot, like all of these different sources, gives you just a treasure trove of information to say. Where are the gaps in content that we have or where are the gaps in information architecture in terms of passing people to the right place?
Steve Goldhaber: Yep. How easily was the data available?
Zoe Kazmierski: I think, you know, some of it was manual, some of it was being able to reach out to the right people. Some of it was just not even being aware that it was available and you know, hearing it from like the C T O and being like, Hey, we need to get a little bit more information about those win-loss interviews, and like what can we learn from them?
Over time, the client research function has also been built up and established, and so being able to create those relationships with the right people has made the data more accessible.
Steve Goldhaber: Yeah, yeah. The win-loss, we've talked on previous episodes, we've talked about win-loss scenarios, and it is such like a, like an untapped mine of information, and most people kind of take the salesperson's input as just fact, right?
Well, why did they, why did they go with another partner? Oh, price sensitivities or timing are not right. And it's interesting because it's like there's usually a layer behind all that. So what would, tell me like how you approached Win-loss? Was it purely just like, Hey, we're looking at data in the C R M? Do you talk to the customers ever to figure out why they said no?
Zoe Kazmierski: I. No. So we had kinda a, you know, function who was very focused on that. So from a digital marketing perspective, we didn't have access to clients. So we have done our kind of qualitative research with clients directly to be able to ask them more about the digital experience. I find that those types of pointed interviews tend to.
Be more productive in terms of getting them in the mindset around like, what is it that you're looking for typically when you are at each stage in the journey, et cetera. But no, I think for us, like being able to understand which capabilities perhaps we didn't shine as well in describing, you know, like was the issue around not being able to integrate with a specific partner or not just getting enough clarity on that type of thing, like how we fit into the tech stack.
That's something that we. Well, how do we slay that up? How do we get more information visible on the company website, on any of our kind of documentation websites, and make that information more available to sales to arm them? So it's kind of like a feedback loop and you wanna make sure that whatever content you're, that you have on the website is consistent with what sales is talking to the client about.
Steve Goldhaber: Yeah. Any data that when you went in here, you just were like, ignore this. This is, it's bad data. It's not important data. 'cause that's my, my challenge usually is, An abundance of data and, and the ability to kind of say like, let's just leave that there because I don't think it's productive data. Anything like that happens.
Zoe Kazmierski: Yeah, I mean, anything that had to do with like pricing was not something that we were going to combat. You know, from an objection standpoint, I think from another search. Perspective, like when for site search or Google search, the types of searches that people are doing can sometimes be directionally helpful, but it's not always indicated indicative of their direct intent.
Yep. So sometimes you have to take it with a grain of salt. Yeah.
Steve Goldhaber: Okay. How long did this whole effort last for you kind of take this different switch, to thinking about data?
Zoe Kazmierski: So, when I first started at this particular company I was mostly focused on the company website at the time. What I had noticed was that the direction that we were taking in terms of, you know, new pages to build and new kind of, you know, content to put out there was much driven by the product marketing function.
And there was very little kind of data mining or sharing or proactive kind of insights around how people are engaging, how people are getting to this website. From various channels, you know, looking at our core audiences and engagement trends, there was not a lot of feedback loop happening. It was kind of like we were just being told, here's what to do.
Yeah. And that took, it took a couple of years, I would say, for us to change that mentality and start to say, Well, here's what we know. You know, like not only here's like how people are searching, here's how people are engaging on the website once they're here. Here's what people are talking about in social, that type of thing.
But we also know what the competitor landscape looks like. That's also very important. So what I've found to be the biggest sta what selling point, I guess what we're talking about with the product marketing or product team. It's just like, well, here's the, here's the view that we have of the data that's available and these competitors who are potentially eating our lunch, like I can tell you what their digital approach is and how we need to match them.
And so that gave us some, some real clout to be able to, to drive that and be much more proactive in our ability to inform the digital experience.
Steve Goldhaber: Yeah. All right. Thanks for sharing case study number two. We're jumping into Q and A and like we always start with, tell us about your first job in marketing.
What were you doing?
Zoe Kazmierski: My first job was in marketing, so I went to this like Summer Publishing Institute at N Y U after graduating as an English major, thinking, well, I don't wanna teach, so why don't publishing, hopefully, make some money? And thought I was gonna be an editor, but in the end, During this program, I realized and like just fell in love with marketing.
So we were assigned this project where you had to pitch a book. Like imagine you were kind of a publisher, you're pitching this new, this new book or series of books. And I was assigned to the marketing role and had to create this whole marketing plan around this book. And I just loved that experience, that idea of trying to match.
What your audience is interested in with what you are selling or putting out there and being able to connect the dots was just totally fascinating to me. So I did go into textbook publishing and started as a marketing assistant there, and that was a lot more like field enablement, and field marketing, but eventually moved into, the digital marketing space of that company.
Steve Goldhaber: Yeah, that's pretty cool. I, I like that publishing start. I think it's also too, it's like fun with. When you have those like, almost like group projects where you're just like, this is your role, go do it. And you, I remember a senior in college who had an advertising class and it was like, I've now given you a product.
It was, It was Tropicana Pure Premium plus it was orange juice, right? And he was like, here's your product. You have three months to develop a plan and sell it. And it was just so fascinating. There were probably four or five people in the group, everyone. Different backgrounds. One person was more of a designer.
So it was really, it was fascinating back then before have like, no one had any experience doing this and it was just all pure ideas and you didn't even know if the ideas were good or not. Right. But, but those are some really fun times. That's like the inner career.
Zoe Kazmierski: That's how I, how I best learned, you know, like just getting thrown in and being like, well this is how I think I would do it.
And you know, you're getting some direction, maybe not a lot from, from your peers and leaders., I remember that so well. I think it shaped, my work going forward.
Steve Goldhaber: I think too, what's, what's nice about those projects is they're not like, so much of what we're used to in our work today is like, continuation of things.
Evolutions of things. The budget goes up or down, and what's always nice about those projects is that you're just thrown with a problem. Here's your problem, go figure it out. And that's, that's exciting to me.
Zoe Kazmierski: Yeah. It gives you a lot of autonomy, especially at that early age.
Steve Goldhaber: What do you, what do you like most about B2B marketing?
What gets you excited about B2B marketing?
Zoe Kazmierski: You know what I like about it, funnily enough, is the fact that it's not super straightforward. Like when you're dealing with these big buying committees, especially for, you know, an enterprise software purchase where it is very complex, there's a lot at stake.
There's a lot at stake from a business and kind of an emotional standpoint, right? How much risk is involved here? How much trust am I giving you? For me, just being able to continually think about how digital marketing can support that, and a lot of that ties into this idea of buyer enablement.
It feels like, a puzzle you're always trying to solve and it feels like there's a lot of room for trial and error and experimentation and like what's gonna work and what's not, and how do we.
Helpful kind of experience that drives value, for clients?
Steve Goldhaber: Yeah. The software world, it's very fascinating because to me it's like you're, you've got two angles on this. One is the actual software product, the other is the people side of it. And you could have a decent product, but the people, the account team or the success team, like don't know how to.
How to rightsize it for the client. It's just not gonna be a great experience. So it's, it's fascinating how some business models, like if you're in a service business, that's all people driven, like that's all, it's, hey, just get five talented people. They'll do great things, but always Right.
Been interested in the software world you gotta have both.
Zoe Kazmierski: Yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, the intersection for me comes when we're trying, especially you know, the company enterprise software company I was talking about where we have this fairly. Complex product, or maybe not complex, but there's a lot to it, right?
There's a ton of capabilities embedded here and like, it's not gonna be a straightforward 32nd demo, one-minute demo. Yeah. How can you unpack this? And we ended up creating this interactive product tour to be able to serve the needs of like buyers. We're just trying to understand like, how does it work?
Like what is this? Can you unpack this for me, in a clear way? Funnily enough, we ended up getting a ton of great feedback from sales that that was like just the tool that they were looking for and whether it was like something they would do in tandem, like during a demo, or just a way of kind of unpacking it in a visual way for that team.
It was effective. So it was great to get that feedback loop on both counts.
Steve Goldhaber: Yeah. I'll make some assumptions here about, the world of software, right? You t typically have the product team, the sales team, the marketing team, and maybe someone in a business general management role. What has been your experience on how to get good chemistry between all those different roles?
What are some things that you've seen work well?
Zoe Kazmierski: Yeah, I think getting alignment with the product marketing team was probably the thing that I focused hard on for the first like few years, and a lot of that was trying to get a clear idea of the value proposition, like what's the roadmap? How do we make sure that we're surfacing the right information on the website across our channels, et cetera?
But also doing that feedback sharing. So one thing that we started to do over the last couple of years is create these search workshop forums basically, where you could bring the product marketing team together. You could also bring in like the brand messaging and creative teams together just to say, this is what we're seeing from a competitive standpoint, from a demand standpoint.
Being able to hone in on search demand overall. I think has helped to rightsize the conversation a bit. 'cause you can get very internally driven and it's like, okay, this is what we're gonna call this product. Or like, this is what we're gonna lean into, which is all very valid. You know, that the product side of the house is talking to clients all day long.
We have a ton of information to add, but when we're trying to talk about aligning to our marketing and business goals and being able to drive demand more, more widely in the marketplace, being able to have a constant source of like, Sources of data streaming in and insights from our side has always helped us to have that, that seat at the table and, and try collaboration.
Steve Goldhaber: Yeah. I'm gonna, I'm gonna talk about content creation for a second. That's very close, to any digital marketers arena. As you think about like the best way to create content, there are all these different models. There's, there's build the team inside, build the team outside, work with freelancers.
What do you think works well? What's a. Balance of how to have a great content team.
Zoe Kazmierski: Yeah, we tried all, all of those different ways over time. I think it depends on the scope of the project. I would say, first of all, if it's something where, you know, we need like a very high-level entry point type page that's explaining a specific topic.
Or we need a little bit of a deeper dive page that's kind of talking about how it works and the value. And like some of the core use cases. I would be careful about who I assigned to that project because somebody who is outside of the company or a freelancer, somebody who's not deeply embedded in all of the messaging that you're getting and all of the education you're getting around, understanding the value drive, it's just gonna be a harder kind of uphill climb.
But then again, you kind of run into these issues. If we're not doing that and we're relying on maybe internal people to write, then you're kind of dealing with with, well, they have competing priorities and how do we kind of get in their queue and help them prioritize, et cetera. So sometimes we've taken an approach of pairing a copywriter and a product marketer together and having it be like, can you just interview this, this product marketer, or just like have a briefing and we're giving the purpose of the page, the outline, like key points and areas that we need to cover.
Somehow this blend seems to work where there's still input being taken basically from both places and the copywriting is just streamlined going forward.
Steve Goldhaber: Yeah, that's a nice model. I like that., I think journalism, being alive in a lot of marketing organizations is a really good thing. I think you need it, especially with various software, and product-heavy messaging,
The comfort zone or the culture of the company tends to be like, let's just talk features and benefits. That's the role of marketing, right? But having a marketing person there to translate that into, Nope, we gotta focus on pain first. We have to earn their trust and then, we can have the feature-benefit conversation when that's the right time.
All right, next question. What drives you nuts? So, you know, let's say it's Monday morning, you're looking out at your entire week. And you're like, I'm gonna cancel all these meetings and I'm not taking these phone calls from anyone. Like what are, what are some things that you just wish would be a lot easier?
Zoe Kazmierski: Yeah, I think that you know, the being overscheduled problem is something, something that everybody faces. I am not immune to it. I think for me it's just being able to have like a shared vision and understanding around like what are the priorities that we're trying to tackle in the second half. You know, as I've progressed in my career, in my role, like you, you become very reliant in a good way on these other teams, like the creative team, the messaging team, product marketing, all these teams I've been talking about.
You become very reliant on them and have to be partners with them, but they may have other priorities that you do, and so it becomes a point of constant negotiation, I guess, to try and get you. Your projects move forward and try to help people understand like, why is this important and just kind of wrangling for time, and resources.
Steve Goldhaber: So yeah. That's, that's interesting. I mean, I think that's a theme I've seen as well where much of corporate America is a problem in saying no, just saying like, we're not doing that this quarter, this year. It's not a priority. It's not to say, that I don't like that project. It's just not a priority.
Some companies are great like leadership can step into that role and align everyone and say, this is what we're, we're focused on. Other times that doesn't happen and leadership tends, to default to the management team to kind of figure out, Oh you guys, you guys work it out. You guys determine what's important.
And that's really, that's hard. 'cause then it creates a lot of, well yeah I have, I have this much cloud in the organization and I think I can get this, so I'm gonna try to ask for it. Right. But yeah. That, that's a, that's a, that's a hard world to live in. Yeah. Final question. Looking back on your career, what are some things that you would kind of tell your younger self, Hey, don't worry so much about this, or, oh, you should have focused on that area.
When, when you were a younger marketer, what are some things looking back that you wish you would've done differently?
Zoe Kazmierski: Yeah. Period. When. We were in this kind of shift around what I was describing before where we, it, it was very product marketing driven, like the content that goes on the website.
And we were kind of changing that to, well, what do we need to have, like a wider footprint and. Even when thinking about buyer enablement, there was a period where I was so focused on like, it's the responsibility of the website to deliver on this and to like, support buyers in, in their process and the website and their experience with like your digital ecosystem is important.
It is not. The only thing, it is probably a smaller thing of what all of their interactions, you know, understanding of like your reputation and all of them, the vendor selection that goes into the research process. I feel like I would've been like, take some, you know, shift your perspective a little bit.
Like, think about the ways that we can do this in a way that's not trying to like to force it all to force the website to be, the linchpin and answer for everything. I think I've like, done more just UX research and done, been exposed to more client research and all the data I was sharing with you before.
And also just getting a sense of how, not even competitors, but just generally like the role that the website plays in the purchase experience. That has shifted my perspective a lot and helped me to get a wider view. Yeah. The other thing I would say, just from a Leadership perspective is as I was making that transition from individual contributor to manager and trying to lead a bigger team, I would tell myself not to take as much responsibility for people's performance.
Like somebody's performance is not your responsibility and like your problems, so to speak. You know? I think that that would've probably helped me be able to grow a little bit more quickly and up on, you know,
Early micromanager tendencies. Yeah. Which, thankfully I had have gone away.
Steve Goldhaber: I, it's, it's really hard, right? Micromanaging is such an interesting term because, I mean, it started, what, 40 years ago and, but now younger folks, newer to the workforce, like they want more hands-on. So like them, they wanna be shown exactly how to do it.
Where 30 years ago it was like, don't be that person, man. You can't micromanage me. It was very much of like a. I'm trying to think of how to describe this. Now I've got to edit myself out. It was very much like a, I know you're in charge, but you're not in charge of me. You know, like, don't, right? Don't tell me exactly how to do it.
And I, and I do with myself. I feel like I've gotten better too in this theory of, I'll say, here's, here's the problem, here's the outcome. I'm gonna give you like maybe two examples of how I've solved it in the past, but you don't have to use them. Yes. But I want you to know about them, and if you wanna leverage it, great.
If you have another solution, that's great, but I, you know, you decide, right? That's, that's kind of been my happy medium where, okay, they know the problem, they know the outcome. I've tried to help them, but ultimately they've got it. Figure out how.
Zoe Kazmierski: Like, you need to recognize that you are committed to that outcome, but you're not attached to how it gets done. And I think that's a big piece of it in that kind of letting go process and just being able to give autonomy and maybe shift to more of a coaching mindset. Yep.
Steve Goldhaber: Yeah. Awesome. Well, Zoe, I enjoyed getting to know more about what you've been up to.
I love, I love the world of software and marketing, in the B2B space, so I, I could talk forever on this, but. On the show today. All right, everyone. That concludes this episode of interesting B2B marketers. Thanks for joining us again at Studio 26. Catch you next time. Bye-bye.